Recherche photo CHWARSCIANEK Wiktoria & Lucja

[Karol_Basiewicz]

Hello,

I am asking you for advice! I am writing to you from Poland, having been interested for several years in the fate of my grandmother's sister, who left a small village in Greater Poland for France around 1923.
Grandma's sister is Wiktoria Chwarścianek, born on December 14, 1904 in Rosko, as the daughter of Feliks and Marianna née Ungerek (alias Hunger).

My family had been talking about her for years that she and her younger sister Łucja went to France, where she worked as a domestic help, and then at some unknown time she became ill (probably mentally ill) and was in a nursing home for the rest of her life. It was said that she died a long time ago, no one knew exactly where and when, and since her younger sister had been dead since 1973, there was no way to find out the truth.

A few years ago, I managed to find out that Wiktoria died on July 20, 2006, which was a complete shock to me.

I managed to find her grave, obtain her death certificate and contact the nursing home where she died.
Unfortunately, all documentation regarding her was destroyed by the administration of this nursing home in 2017.

Nevertheless, I do not lose hope of finding Wiktoria's photo and I am turning to you with this issue.
In Poland, you have to replace your ID card every decade and the photos in this ID are stored in various offices, which allows you to find them after many years.
And what is it like in France? Is there any institution that may have a relatively recent photo of Victoria?

I only have one photo of her, which is probably from 1923. Wiktoria herself lived to the age of 102.

Thank you for your replies,
Karol

[Lesniewski]

Pouvez-vous nous indiquez son lieu de décès ?

La nom de naissance est Chwarścianek ou c'est son nom marital ?
Frania

[Lesniewski]

j'ai trouvé le décès à Nanterre
Frania

[Vendôme]

Witaj Karol,
Back in the 70's and still in 2006, the ID document (a small folded card) was issued for life ; only the passport had a validity time (10 years + 5 more years, used as ID only).

Maybe for the average French citizens, there might be some pictures records somewhere in the administrative system, but I I wonder Wiktoria's photographs would have been held in some archives.
— Did you try to search upstream, in the region/area where she and Lucja arrived in France.
— In which location was she working as a domestic help?
— Was it a town home or on a farm?
— Were the two sisters employed together?
— Under which status they left Poland onto France?   Was it throught an official French manpower State Organizatiion? Or by themselves?
— Did Wiktoria acquired the French nationality during her life in France?

[Karol_Basiewicz]

Thank you very much for your answers!

My previous post didn't give much detail, so I'll try to describe them below.

As I wrote earlier, Wiktoria and Łucja go to France in 1923, supposedly to join their father, and my great-grandfather, Feliks Chwarścianek. According to the documents I managed to find, the first place where they both stayed was Le Châtelet-sur-Retourne, and later in Remis. Unfortunately, I only know that they worked as domestic help - it also seems to me that they worked together, but for whom and where exactly, I unfortunately do not know.

Eventually, both sisters settled in Nanterre.

I know where they worked from the naturalization documentation of Łucja Chwarścianek, which I received from the French archive. Documents relating to Victoria have not been found, so I conclude that she never took French citizenship due to illness.

While searching for materials about both sisters, I also tried to find information about Łucja's husband - Kazimierz Czerski, who also came from Poland.

I am attaching the documents regarding the naturalization of Łucja and Kazimierz (in which Wiktoria is mentioned) at this link to Google Drive:https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1L5XkXgLGnwwRWRRfLcBCZ458e0tvA2ch?usp=drive_link

I very much regret that the center where she was staying - EHPAD on Nanterre CASH - Max Fourestier Hospital - had already destroyed the documents after Victoria. However, I do not regret this, it is understandable that after the patient's death, the documents relating to him are destroyed.

Nevertheless, I do not lose hope that I will find a photo of Wiktoria somewhere. Unfortunately, there are no longer any relatives who could have them - Łucja and Kazimierz did not have any children of their own. I don't know what happened to their property after their death.

Karol

[Vendôme]

the first place where they both stayed was Le Châtelet-sur-Retourne, and later in Remis. Unfortunately, I only know that they worked as domestic help - it also seems to me that they worked together, but for whom and where exactly, I unfortunately do not know.

As per your  IMG 4630

- Le Châtelet-sur-Retourne is located in the Ardennes area, a village where currently leave some 400 inhabitants ;  back in the mid 20's they were probably 2 times less...
Lucja was working for Mrs Lamarteleur (Lemarteleur?) — perhaps in a small farm, a mill or a diairy  (1926-1927)
Currently several Lemarteleur names still exist there.
See pictures of the village here : https://www.geneanet.org/cartes-postales/search/?country=&from=&go=1&motcle=&page=1&place=Le+Ch%C3%A2telet-sur-Retourne&region=&restrict_type=&size=10&subregion=&to=&zonegeo=Ardennes

— Reims (not "Remis") is a big city, champagne vineyards area. Lucja was working for Mrs Straus at 25 rue Merlé . However this name doesn't exist : it might be a clerical mistake for rue Werlé As Mrs Straus' house was located  in the wealthy center district, for sure Lucja was a maid there.

Nothing in the posted documents indicate that both the sisters had been working together.

As this is time-consuming, I shall post more, later on, about the documents related to Kazimierz and  Lucja life in the close northern suburbs of Paris.

Meanwhile, do you have more informations and dates regarding the admitance of  Wiktoria at the EHPAD-CASH of Nanterre?
You may like to know that originaly this structure was  a hospice for the elderly and destitute (hospicjum dla osób starszych i pozbawionych środków do życia). Knowing this, it doesn't mean, however, that Wiktoria was ill ; perhaps her life had become miserable and helpless after Lucja passed away? 

[Karol_Basiewicz]

Thank you for your involvement in this thread! It really means a lot to me.

I think in 2021 or 2022 I contacted EHPAD-CASH in Nanterre and then I received a reply that Wiktoria's documentation had been destroyed in 2017. The only thing that survived were a few documents from the tests she had done (cardiological, gastroenterological, but nothing related to psychiatry, which puzzled me, because after all, the family said that Wiktoria suffered from a mental illness - but maybe it's just a coincidence). In any case, in order to obtain these documents, which have no genealogical value anyway, I would have to apply to the court to recognize me as her heir, which would be a long process and probably not worth the effort. The photo of Wiktoria that was definitely in her personal file was destroyed along with the rest of the documentation. I did ask the administration of the centre to find out if any of the senior staff remember Wiktoria - after all, she was a Pole who turned 100 in this centre - maybe someone remembers her, but unfortunately after some time I stopped receiving replies.

The most interesting information I obtained by corresponding with this centre is that Wiktoria was placed there in 1987. Unfortunately, it is not known who placed her there, or whether she was sent to EHPAD-CASH in Nanterre from another centre (this seems most likely to me).

For years, the family has been passing on information that Wiktoria fell ill while in France very early. This is partly confirmed by the photos that I managed to collect from various relatives and which I myself have - practically all of them show her sister Łucja with her husband, and only one shows Wiktoria. I doubt that the sisters who left Poland forever (Łucja visited her hometown once - around 1970, and otherwise maintained correspondence; unfortunately, the letters have not survived) would have had such poor contact with each other in France that only one photo of Wiktoria has survived. Mental illness explains this - Wiktoria was in some facility for those years.

When Łucja died on May 6, 1973 in Les Lilas, the care of her sick sister could have passed to her husband Kazimierz, and if he did not want to do it, or was unable, the state began to provide care for Wiktoria.

Before his death, Kazimierz visited Poland once, it could have been around 1980. Family stories are inconsistent in this respect, but apparently after Łucja's death no one knew what facility Wiktoria was in. Why Kazimierz, who must have known this during his visit to Poland, did not say so - I do not know.

Supposedly, after his death, one of my aunts tried to look for Wiktoria through the Polish Red Cross, which told her that Wiktoria was dead. I don't really believe that was the case, because the Red Cross is concerned with searching for people who went missing in war, not in modern times. Unfortunately, I can't ask my aunt about this, because she died in 2001.

Karol

[Vendôme]

OK. Prior all, let's  see what the documents you posted earlier can indicate concerning Kazimierz and Lucja.

All these documents are a complete Police report ; a thorough investigations concerning the couple.
The aim is a compréhensive survey about both the applicants prior granting them, the French nationality.

— dated 1965
 The two red documents ( IMG 4611 & 4612) seem to be the hard covers of the whole file, showing an annotation of two money transfers and their respective  postal receipts for Kazimierz and Lucja.
Probably some administrative. fees

— dated 1964
Kazimierz Czerski: residing 131 rue de Paris, Les Lilas;  wife Polish; no children; occupation : workshop keeper; 
Mobilized on December 1939 with the 2nd Infantry Regiment at Coëtquidan camp.
Taken prisonner on june 16th, 1940 at Saint-Dié.
Interned  in Stalag XII-B in Hammerstein (Pomorze).
Repatriated in 1945
Released from his military obligations on June 7th, 1945 in Vesoul.
With the rank of corporal
Recipient of a 55% disability pension.

- Stalag XII-B  https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stalag_II-B
- Coëtquidan : from October 1939 to June 1940, more than 22,000 soldiers of the Polish army after their defeat during the Polish campaign occupied the camp. https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camp_militaire_de_Co%C3%ABtquidan
- Saint Dié : not far from the German border. https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint-Di%C3%A9-des-Vosges

— dated February 1964
IMG 4614 and onwards, are an Application form  for naturalization of both husband and wife, morality report, and Police Information Notice that indicates:
KAZIMIERZ:
Polish refugee.
Maried july 21st, 1951 in Les Lilas (F) with Lucja, mecanic fitter
Kazimierz arrived in France on July, 7th, 1938
With a farm laborer contract concluded with the French National Immigration Office, ONI
Employed by Mr. Charles Ferrat in Rouves par Sézanne (wioska -  area La Marne)
Worked as a bronze foundryman (period Sept. 1945 — March 1961)
With La Thermostatique Co. in Les Lilas
Then, in 1961, as Workshop Guard, same place,  being handicaped after illness
LUCJA:
Lucja arrived  in France  August 1928
She mentions a sister, Wiktoria. As well as a brother (leaving in Poland)
Employed as servant, maid, mechanic fitter
No contract mentionned.
Earlier, up to 1937 she was employed as a maid in different places, the two last in Paris, in the wealthy districts of Paris 16 and Boulogne-Billancourt.
Since 1947, she works as a mechanic fitter with Société Nouvelle Auto Equipment in Paris 20

MISC. POINTS
During the German Occupation,  for the period 1941-1944,  she worked as a waitress for the Germans at Rue Emile Landrin in Boulogne-Billancourt (few blocks away from the German Bureau for Employement.
She declared to the Police Surveyors that it was due to difficulties finding employment and to avoid being sent to Germany for the Compulsory Labor Service, that she worked for the Occupiers as a waitress (June 1st, 1941 - July 1944). Apparently this point did not impair the obtention of the French citizenship.

Kazimierz was earning 600 francs/month and Lucja 650 F
Kazimierz's disability pension was amounting to 1,033 francs/year
Their quarterly rent was 130 F (not taxable in 1961)

— 1965 : Naturalization decree dated March 25, 1965

Similarly, for Kazimierz, in the file, a mail dated july 15th, 1966 mentions a criminal conviction. "The amount of the sentence incurred does not allow for forfeiture of nationality"(IMG 4641).  His veteran and war prisonner statuses, were also taken into consideration.

For your information Les Lilas and Paris 20 are situated north-east of Paris, while Paris 16, Boulogne-Billancourt and Asnières are south-west. Opposite districts.

I have few more comments, but that's enough  for the time being.




 

[Lesniewski]

La demande de Karol est "cherche une photo de Wiktoria" on est loin du sujet. Le fait que tout est en anglais ne facilite pas les recherches  alors que Karol habite en Pologne il pourrait mettre les demandes en Polonais. Faire un récapitulatif des posts pour trouver une photo ? 

Vu mon expérience et en "principe" dans les dossiers de naturalisation il y a des photos............

[Vendôme]

(...) La demande de Karol est "cherche une photo de Wiktoria" on est loin du sujet. (...)

I also tried to find information about Łucja's husband - Kazimierz Czerski

(J'ai aussi essayé de trouver des informations sur le mari de Łucja - Kazimierz Czerski]



1) Pourquoi Karol formule sa demande en anglais ? C'est à lui qu'il faut poser la question.
Cependant, c'est compréhensible : à la  lecture de ce Forum on réalise que presque tout est en français, il n'y a pas beaucoup de texte en polonais ; de là à imaginer que peu ici lisent le polonais.

2) Il écrit en anglais— par courtoisie je répond pareillement.

3) Pour ce qui est de la photo, s'agissant ici du dossier de naturalisation des époux, il comporte la copie d'une photo de Karol... parfaitement illisible. Il n'y a rien qui concerne Wiktoria (hormis la mention de son nom)

[Stephane]

Concernant les naturalisation, en effet c'est aléatoire, sur 3 dossiers demandés, je n'ai eu aucune photo !

Pour l'anglais ou d'autres langues et suivant votre navigateur ( ici j'utilise Firefox ) il y a des extensions qui existent. Sur n'importe qu'elle partie du forum c'est clic droit et traduire cette page avec Google traduction et hop, on peut  comprendre.
Si vous avez des questions dans le forum dédié technique

[Karol_Basiewicz]

Thank you for all your answers! I would especially like to thank you for analyzing the documents concerning Łucja and Kazimierz, because I do not speak French myself. I use English because it is closer to me - I do not know if I would be better understood if I used Polish.

La principale question que j'aimerais déterminer avec votre aide est de savoir où chercher la photo de Victoria.
J'ai des photos de Łucja et Kazimierz, datant de l'entre-deux-guerres et d'après. J'ai une photo de Wiktoria, datant d'environ 1930, même si elle a vécu jusqu'en 2006.

Est-ce que contacter la mairie de Nanterre m'aidera d'une manière ou d'une autre ? À quelle institution dois-je écrire pour obtenir une telle photo ? J'ajouterai qu'à ma connaissance, Wiktoria n'a eu la nationalité française qu'à la fin de sa vie (traduit de Google Translator).

Karol